Loyalty Series Part 3: Seamless Web3 Onboarding

Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome back everyone to Marketing Meets Web 3. This is the third conversation in a four-part series about Web 3 and loyalty marketing. In the first conversation, we introduced the series by covering some foundational Web 3 concepts and discussed the opportunities for Web 3 to enhance loyalty marketing. In the second conversation, we chatted with Drew Beechler from Holder, a Web 3 CRM, and in that conversation we discussed how Web 3 creates new paths to customer data insights. Alberto give us a preview of the conversation ahead.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Yeah, hello, nick. So in this episode we talk to Toby Resch from Redeem, a Web 3 onboarding toolkit. This conversation will center on how digital asset ownership empowers customers to take control of their digital assets through a seamless onboarding experience. So this is going to be interesting, so we'll get on it. Hello Toby, hello Nick, welcome to Marketing Meets Web 3.

Speaker 3: 1:04

Hello Alberto, good morning, great to be with you guys.

Speaker 2: 1:08

I am very happy to have you here, toby, and if you don't mind, could you give us a little bit of an intro about yourself and your company?

Speaker 3: 1:18

Sure, my name is Toby Resch, ceo and co-founder of Redeem. Serial entrepreneur. I love building new experiences with pretty complex technology, but really try to simplify and make it easy for the user. So the current project that I'm working on is called Redeem and really what we've done is built a Web 3 platform that simplifies and accelerates the path to experience by linking a phone number, devices and wallets.

Speaker 3: 1:44

We're leveraging existing infrastructure being phone numbers and phones, user behaviors again, what we do with our phones and opening the world to Web 3 in everyone without having to educate anyone. So we always think of the idea of, hey, let's get straight to engagement, skip the education, let's get the experience first. Really, fundamentally, we don't know exactly what use cases or even what behaviors, honestly, at the end of the day, are going to win, but our thesis is the phone is always going to be a part of that, no matter what that is. It's kind of this infrastructure and an API layer around a phone number of phones, easy onboarding and kind of wallets. So, again, for brands and marketers and other merchants who are trying to engage consumers to make it as easy as holding your phone.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Thank you, toby. I don't think we need an intro from you, nick. People already know you at this stage, but yes. So thank you, toby, for this intro, because it explains what we want to cover in today's conversation, which is around web memberships for users. So maybe, to begin, we could start by defining the basics. So could you define what the customer-owned experience means in the Web 3 framework?

Speaker 3: 2:58

Yeah, and I'll even take one step back even from that. So the whole idea, one of the biggest ideas I get really excited about Web 3 is the idea that individual people can own a little piece of data outside the traditional silos of what we've always typically known as big tech. So today, apple or Facebook or Google or even some degree Ticketmaster or Visa or the government they own so much of your data and if you want to experience something or know anything about that data, you have to go back to those kind of there be authoritative source, right. They're the owner of your data and so they're, for you can only participate and engage based on their rules and based on their infrastructure and based on, oftentimes, going into their ecosystem to have any kind of experience.

Speaker 3: 3:40

Web3 and NFTs specifically give us the ability to own or hold little pieces of data in an open ecosystem yet maintain absolute trust Because data is infinitely copyable and pasteable, like how do I know Nick owns ABC versus I own ABC because we can copy and paste that all day long. But that's exactly what NFTs in the blockchain provide for us. It provides trust in an open ecosystem where individuals can again can own a little piece of data that can unlock new experiences. So when we think about a customer owned experience, you got to start with customer owned data Right, and so customer owned data is again very much kind of what NFTs and Web3 are all about. So I think is I think about a customer owned experience begins with this idea of being able to own a piece of my own data, typically kind of packaged as an NFT. That will then allow me to have a direct engagement with a number of different participants in a given ecosystem without being constrained by kind of a rigid or monolithic structure that typically the big companies have forced upon us.

Speaker 2: 4:46

Thank you, Nick. Do you want anything to say in there?

Speaker 1: 4:50

You know, I'll add one thing, which is, you know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit what does it mean to own the experience as a customer? All right, we talk a lot about customer ownership in Web3. And we put this out there as a major benefit. But I think a lot of people coming to Web3 for the first time maybe traditional Web2 marketers or people that just aren't familiar with the tech they look at the space and they say, well, what is the value of ownership and what does that mean for my customers? What does that mean for my business?

Speaker 1: 5:15

And if we kind of roll back time a little bit and think about the way that branding works and think about the way that people collect pieces of a brand in the real world, you can go all the way back through time.

Speaker 1: 5:27

I mean simple things like bumper stickers, t-shirts, you know, anything that signifies I am a customer or I am a fan of something.

Speaker 1: 5:36

People tend to have this collector activity and when they collect things, that tends to show up as ownership.

Speaker 1: 5:41

So you know, fast forward to modern times and maybe you're an iPhone person or you're an Android person and, in a way, you are showing your brand allegiance to Apple or Google, and that happens all across. You know products and experiences, and so, as marketers, I think it's important to think about this as an opportunity to evolve the experience or the behavior that's pretty natural for people. Today, people are already used to things like collecting parts of the experience, parts of the brands that they love, and digital ownership just takes it one step further and, to Toby to your point, gives them a way to basically externalize their allegiance or their fandom to the rest of the world in a way that can be recognized by people outside of these closed silos, these closed ecosystems. So, again, I think it's just kind of extending the way that humans work naturally when it comes to interacting with brands, interacting with businesses, and this is just another surface area that, as marketers, we can start to play around with.

Speaker 3: 6:39

Nick, I would even kind of double down on that because I totally agree the idea of a user kind of raising a flag or giving specific I am a fan of this, or I like this brand, or I like this sports team, or I like these things, and being able to express that in a digital fashion can be quite hard right. So where would you store that data? Where do I store that I like the Kansas City Chiefs? That's actually a very difficult thing to store, unless you went to Ticketmaster or you saw me post on Facebook or you have to go inside these various walled gardens to know that the chances that I like the Kansas City Chiefs Right, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:16

And as another business who wants to recognize that you like the Kansas City Chiefs, how would you do that? Right, you have to advertise to you on Facebook.

Speaker 2: 7:24

You have to find you in these ecosystems, so yeah, Tommy, could you connect the idea of customer-owned experience with another concept that comes up a lot, which is the concept of the self-sovereign? Could you connect these two or differentiate both of them?

Speaker 3: 7:40

Yeah, so.

Speaker 3: 7:40

I think that the idea of so. If you're going to own something in an open ecosystem, it's like how do you own it? How do I say I want to, I possess this thing, right, and so you know, identity is typically something that Each individual we'll call it again, call these silos or these walled gardens have historically owned right. So I go to Apple, I have an identity in Apple. I go to Google Google has my identity, facebook has my identity. Tiktok I met a young name, your entity.

Speaker 3: 8:08

But to take that and then go outside those ecosystems, just like because data has to live outside the ecosystem, how does a user identify themselves outside the ecosystem in a way that's both convenient and really secure? So this idea of a self-sorbent is I need to be able to claim ownership to these things, the tradition that's a wallet, right. Then have a way for me to basically claim ownership of a grouping of data, of assets, right Of these as a business entity. So being able to have sovereignty over my identity in these open ecosystems, one that I can own and control, but also that is easy for me to kind of, at what's called a test station, I can attest that this is really me, I actually own this wallet. Therefore I own these entities which kind of speak to my preferences and fan base.

Speaker 1: 8:57

And you can do that without the assistance or the requirement of a third party. You can wander around the digital world and you can, to your point, you can attest to your own identity.

Speaker 2: 9:07

We have the asset ownership and the customer-owned experience connected to the self-sorvering identity of users. How does this, in your opinion I would like to hear both of you here how does this improve the user experience, of the customer or the audience?

Speaker 1: 9:26

Sure. So I come from a UX background, so I think about this aspect quite a bit. Today, when we talk about personalization, we talk about using data that a platform has acquired by interacting with us somehow, and usually that's through. To be honest and to be very candid, it's through harvesting our data. Right, we interact with platforms, we interact with social media, and our data is harvested and profiles are built against that data, and then that data is used to try to personalize our experience. However, because of data compliance regulations, things like GDPR, things like CCPA, the extent to which we can customize an experience has changed over time, and so we have less and less ability to finally tune that experience for an individual, because of privacy concerns, and for the consumer. That's a good thing. It means that our data isn't being used without our consent. It means that our data isn't being used to target us in ways that we just don't want to be targeted. It's creepy to be followed around the internet when we didn't ask for that, but it also, as marketers, takes away our ability to really dial in our targeting and really find customers that align with our value proposition and that could really actually benefit from our services and the value that we provide, what digital collectibles do, what NFTs do and what Web3 does really well is it gives us a new way to identify people out in the digital wild.

Speaker 1: 10:52

So to Toby.

Speaker 1: 10:53

To Toby, to your earlier point of being a Kansas City Chiefs fan.

Speaker 1: 10:57

There are probably many things in your life that you're a fan of or you're involved in, and there are ways that, through collecting digital items, that becomes your profile. But what's different this time around, versus targeting you using advertising platforms, for instance, is that you get to raise your hand as a consumer and you say, yeah, I wanna opt into that because there's some value exchange and now you can have a direct relationship with the marketer that's trying to reach you. And all of that money, the time, the resources that's going into the ad platforms to find you can actually be redirected towards delivering some additional value to you. So instead of paying the ad platform, why not just directly incentivize Toby, because we know that he's a Kansas City Chief fan and if he wants to opt into that, great then he can, because it's his stuff, he owns his identity. If he wants to opt out, he can do that too. So it's an interesting new way, I think, to think about targeting, and think about interacting with people in a much more personalized way. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:55

I get kind of the question around how does owning your own data, owning your own identity, kind of enhance and improve the user experience? So you know, I'm a big believer in this idea of kind of the creativity or incomposibility around free markets and open ecosystems is always surprising, right, and so I think we've gotten a little bit, you know, so used to. I mean, really there's five or six companies in the world that tell us what we can do and what we should like and how we should experience things, and you know those being again the big tech companies, the big tech platforms. When I can again experience brands, fans, each other, athletes, you know so many of these things in an open ecosystem, I think the creativity is going to go off, you know, go crazy, because we have just so much more many ways that we can now engage with given consumers and do it collaboratively with other brands or athletes or influencers or just other fans that are out of the ecosystem. So I think the experience is going to be net new.

Speaker 3: 12:58

I think a lot of stuff that Nick said agree of. You know, rather than pay a lot of the big tech companies to harvest data to try to figure out what you might like. They're gonna be able to engage much more directly with us by things that we've specifically opted into. Right, so it gives me both a level of control, a much stronger sense of kind, of what I like, who I like, how I want to be engaged. But again, I think I get excited, but I think it's gonna be super creative. Right, we're not depending on five or six companies to tell us what we should like and how we should, what we should read and what's important, but we get, just again I think, more of a composable and a creative experience.

Speaker 1: 13:37

That's a really great point. The composability aspect, because you think about today. You know on platforms there's only so much that you can do as a creator or as a participant. You think about TikTok. You know you can create TikToks, you can remix things, you can pull in little bits and pieces, but it's all within the rule set of TikTok. And so when we get into a world where people are creating and owning things in an open ecosystem, it just becomes much more fluid. And, toby, to your point, I think that just blows the doors open for new sort of interoperability, new creative experiences. I think it's gonna be a really sort of a renaissance period for digital experiences.

Speaker 2: 14:14

We've talked about how customer-owned experiences and self-sovereign identities don't exist right now, because most of this data is with a few different companies. We've talked about this. Maybe we can take a minute to talk about or to discuss. Why is this the case? What is the value for the user to go outside of this, to go to a world where they own their own assets and they own their own identity, and how high is the friction to go from their world we are in today to this other new world?

Speaker 3: 14:48

Yeah. So I think the benefit is again. I think it is going to be a surprise and delight, like we're gonna get the creativity of thousands of companies, kind of not the rules of five. So I do think there's going to be a new level of engagement, a new way from whether I'm shopping or whether I'm enjoying engagement, I think it's the collaboration of hey, I bought something we were talking a little bit about kind of, and I pair Nike shoes, but they can show up in an EA sports game. I went to a chief's game and so it shows up in some other experience that I'm having. So I think the collaborative nature is something that we haven't really seen yet. So I do think there is going to be a much more personalized and direct experience that a consumer is gonna be able to have with the brain, and the brain is gonna be able to again, you might say, incentivize me in much more direct ways. So, rather than go through the platforms or go through these other intermediaries, they're gonna be having a direct line of communication in a way to activate, incentivize me.

Speaker 3: 15:49

I think the friction point is really high right now, like we're asking people to not just change behavior. We're asking for almost an entirely new mental model, which is one of the challenges Like wait, not only is it a different user behavior, like I own my own data, like what does that mean and how does that work? And so an old adage we have in the technology where, like, user behavior change is hard, really really hard. Mental model changes is again of another step level above that. It's kind of, specifically, one of the things that we're trying to redeem is kind of be the bridge, kind of between those ways. So the idea of, like we all have this global unique identifier that we have with us all the time is being our phone number. It's bound very tightly to this device that we have with us, who's also very, very secure, right, and so can we use kind of the possession of the phone and this phone number as a way to kind of unlock kind of the self-sorbent identity, to unlock this connection into these blockchain wallets.

Speaker 3: 16:44

But to a consumer is like, oh, it's just, it's my phone. Like I understand my phone, I understand it's unique, I understand how to do biometrics. There's no new behavior there. So try and take these existing behaviors but link them to a different set of capabilities that they can go direct to experience, right, so we're not teaching them. Hey, go download this new thing, go come up with these 12 different you know passphrases that you have to write down somewhere because, hey, this is really important. So can we be a little bit of a bridge? We you know as redeeming. We have a foot in each camp, right, we're using the familiar of a phone number and phone, but then a foot in the other camp of kind of this web, three, blockchain, world composable and open ecosystem engagements.

Speaker 2: 17:25

What do you think, Nick, about the friction and the value for users? Do you think the value is enough to overcome the friction?

Speaker 1: 17:33

Well, first off, I totally agree with Toby in terms of where we are today. I think we've set a really high bar for people, and this is something that happens with emerging technology. We always kind of see this pattern where the early stuff is always hard and it's actually designed for the hardcore technologists, the early adopters. It's rarely a great user experience, and then that evolves over time. I think what generally drives that evolution is the incentive on the other side, and creating an incentive on the other side that makes sense for the masses is what we haven't found yet in Web 3, but is, in my view, inevitable. I think we will hit that tipping point with mobile devices' text messaging. That was the original killer app. It unlocked people's ability to think about a device not as a technology gadget but as a way to communicate with the wider world.

Speaker 1: 18:27

And so when digital collectible ownership or being able to prove your own identity on the web becomes something that is no longer a novelty but is actually a primary way that we receive value and that could be we don't know what's going to drive that change. This could be something completely unexpected. Meta recently has been talking about this kind of open environment where they have this thing called the Fediverse, and they've talked about this with their Threads product, which is similar to Twitter Now X. So many changes. A big company like that could they have the user base, they have the muscle to be able to say you know what we're going to embrace open ecosystems, and now consumers are looking at something like self-sovereign identity and owning digital items as a real value add, because that's contributing to their everyday sort of social experiences.

Speaker 1: 19:23

So I don't think we don't have that yet. I think we're all pushing and looking for ways to make the experience better. Toby, obviously companies like Redeem are at the forefront of that, thinking about ways to bring this back down to. I think you told me in person once the grandma test. Can you put this in front of your grandma and get her all the way through the flow? And I think that really should be the bar that we're all chasing. So not there, but I'm definitely hopeful that that's not too far away for us. I think it's closer than we actually think.

Speaker 2: 19:52

We are not there, but well, there are some companies that have already started to implement some of these and make some of this simple for the user, and maybe we can talk about a couple of examples where customer-owned experiences have been successfully implemented.

Speaker 3: 20:06

Yeah, and I think probably one of the more popular ones and successful ones. Really, what Nike has done with Switch, you know kind of the ability for someone to come and say, hey, I'm a Nike fan, you know I wear Nikes, I like the Switch, I like these particular shoes, and Nike is one of those interesting. They're both an iconic brand. They're not really a luxury brand, but they're kind of a high-end brand, but yet they're accessible to everybody. So they really do sit in a fascinating place and they do such an amazing job kind of with their brand and being thoughtful about how can they engage directly with the consumer that bought one of their pairs of shoes, whether they bought it through a retail store or online or through Amazon or kind of wherever. It is like they would love to have that direct connection with the user, and through Nike's Swoosh they're able to do that. But it didn't just stop with hey, we want to be able to connect directly with my users.

Speaker 3: 20:53

They've really again kind of leading the charges in these creativity, say, hey, how do I partner with other brands, other experiences where we can kind of make these connections right?

Speaker 3: 21:04

So they recently announced a big partnership with EA, kind of sports and gaming, right. So how do I then? You know, because I have this digital representation, this digital banner or flag or bumper sticker as I think it's Nick or he said, I've got a digital bumper sticker that says I like Nike and so therefore, when I go into some of these EA games, I can wear my Nikes, right. So it's a form of self-expression, right. So I have bought the digital version of the bumper sticker of Nike or like I would put on my laptop or I'd put on kind of whatever I used to put on. I now have a digital version of that. So therefore, when I show up in a digital world, I can bring that preference with me, I can bring my fan DUM with me, and they do such a great job of kind of engaging consumers' passion and then kind of helping them again be composable and collaborative. I think we're just seeing the beginning of that.

Speaker 2: 21:59

There was another example that we came across recently, which is one from the US woman's open, the Gold Open. Sorry, that was an interesting example of this. Maybe, nick, do you want to share some knowledge about this. I know you followed it and we discussed it in the past.

Speaker 1: 22:16

I did follow it and I own two of these items, so this is a project from Artball. It was a collaboration between the US Women's Open and Artball. Artball also collaborated with the Australian Open last year, so this is sort of the second iteration of their technology and the experience that they're working on. The way this worked very high level is that they took a. They used technology to basically overlay a grid on top of the 17th hole at the US Women's Open and throughout the tournament, whenever a ball would land on a particular spot on the 17th hole, that corresponded with a token in their collection of art balls. So these art balls all started as sort of plain white golf balls and then, as the tournament play evolved and these balls started hitting and rolling across these different grids, it created or triggered this generative art that got painted on the art ball and so if you were holding one of the art balls, your art ball changed. So I bought an art ball and then it came back later and it actually changed and now it's covered in art and it's got this paint job on it as well as some metadata.

Speaker 1: 23:24

That kind of reflects what happened in the gameplay and what's really cool about that is kind of similar to gaming, where we're taking experiences and we're starting to play with things like composability and how do we pull this experience into that experience and bring these things together. Art ball is looking at a way to kind of merge the fan and the player and bring that together in a digital collectible so that as a fan, I'm not just passively watching a sport, I'm actually participating, because now I own an item that memorializes what happened on the course that day. I have a little bit more connection to that because I own this thing and that's kind of my moment in time that I can share with the athlete that I'm following. So pretty cool experimentation happening there and I think we're going to see more and more of these experiences where you're taking one aspect of an experience and another aspect of an experience and you're blending them together and bringing that together in a collectible that a consumer can collect or can own.

Speaker 3: 24:24

One of the things I love about that example, Nick, is we started with a digital. It was impacted by the physical, and so now you have this digital kind of physical kind of combination, but then again you'll take that into another metaverse or kind of a completely other experience of we've really been able to blend kind of the physical, the digital ownership metaverse, all these different places that we want to engage and when data can flow freely. I think we're going to see a lot more of this super creative, fun examples of use cases where, you know, yeah, I think it's going to be a fun period over the next couple of years, Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 25:01

This flow of data that you just talked about, toby, brings me to another aspect of Web3 that I think it's interesting to touch on, which is how Web3 technologies can help in the interactions between customers and brands, making these more transparent. Do you think this is interesting and this could bring value to users and brands?

Speaker 3: 25:23

You know honestly this is one of the areas where I feel like we've still got a lot of learning and growing to do here. I think people like data being on chain, but we also like some level of privacy, and so how do we make it easy? So we love the idea of, hey, a user needs their own data Great, love it. How does a user then give permission to various people to see different things in exchange for value? Right, so at a high level, that's a great message, of course, like it's user data. If a company wants to use that data or engage that data or give something of value, whether it's simply an experience or some sort of benefit or a problem, that's awesome.

Speaker 3: 25:55

Doing that in a way that grandma can understand is really hard, and I'd say we've got a lot of learning and growing to do in that. So I think, as an ideal and a goal, we have the infrastructure to allow that. I think we've really got to think deeply and hard about how do you make it easy for the non-technical person to figure this out, like if you ever gone into I mean somebody's big platform Google or Facebook, like go in and understand Google's privacy settings. Holy smokes, we talk about menu after menu after menu and you get down into like literally like the 10th rung of menu hell trying to figure out, okay, what part is this doing? And you got to be really technical to understand that. So I love the idea of you know how do we allow for more data transparency, value exchange, more direct value exchange. But this is one of the areas as an industry we're going to have to really think deeply about mental models and user behaviors.

Speaker 1: 26:54

To make it easy for grandma I completely agree with that and I think you know. Also, looking at the past, taking a cue from what's happened with social media, using that as a reference point of you know, maybe some lessons we don't want to repeat with data privacy, and using that as input for the policies, the frameworks, the best practices that usher in this next phase of the internet.

Speaker 2: 27:18

I think we just covered one of the big challenges, but I wonder if there are more challenges for any marketer who's listening to this and who's seeing the value that Web3 could bring and is thinking, well, okay, I see the value, but there are also some challenges that I need to go through. Which other challenges do you think are relevant for marketers today who want to prevent this?

Speaker 3: 27:41

Yeah, you know, just like we're asking users to engage in a new mental model, we've got to ask marketers to do the same thing. This is a new mental model that they have Just trying to do the same thing we've done in Web2 and Web3 is going like why do Web3? I mean I would say force them to really think about Can I do something in Web 3 that I could not do in Web 2? Right, and so I think the challenge that so many marketers have is, again, we've kind of grown up knowing the sky is blue and the water is wet, and well, that is still true in these certain areas how do we again bend the reality around to offer different experiences? So I think there is still friction.

Speaker 3: 28:23

There's going to continue to be friction in the Web 3 world. The use cases that we're working on, they're OK, but we've got to do a lot better. We've got to be more compelling on the value at the end of that on the other side of the friction. Because again, yes, we're going to work on friction, we're going to make it better, but you also have to make the reward on the other side of kind of whatever that engagement is. So where I would think the challenge for a lot of marketers is thinking outside the box, thinking a little bit differently, sort of what are these experiences that I can deliver, leveraging open ecosystems, open data and then collaboratively right. Historically, so many marketers think what can I do with my users? What can we do with our users? Far more interesting and far more fun, but we have to think different. Just like we're asking our users to engage differently, we have to ask our marketers to think differently.

Speaker 1: 29:16

Yeah, and building on thinking differently. Toby completely agree. We need to dig in deeply with this stuff. Toby and I actually met through a marketing group called Jump. It's an organization or a group, a community really that has come together around the idea of Web 3 and marketing and is really leaning into each other to self-educate, to experiment together, to collaborate, and one of the challenges that I think we hear over and over again is education.

Speaker 1: 29:47

How do I take this back to my organization?

Speaker 1: 29:49

How do I explain this number one and how do I get organizational buy-in to start trying some things to make sure that we're not left behind, because I think a lot of marketers and rightly so are afraid that Web 3, it's becoming a thing and more and more people are talking about this, and we see these big brands that are running these experiments.

Speaker 1: 30:06

I mean Starbucks and their Odyssey Program. That's a pretty major thing, and I think some marketers now are starting to feel like if they don't dig in, they're going to get left behind, the same thing that happened with social media when people didn't take social media seriously. And so I think, on the education side of things really leaning into the community and finding thought partners, finding collaborators and finding ways that you can get involved as a marketer really just to get your hands around this stuff first. I think, toby, to your point about mental models. It's a challenge at an individual level first that we have to solve, for we have to let this stuff soak in and become ingrained in the way that we think about interacting with our customers, our fans, and then we can turn that around to the organization and explain it and build strategy around it and build something that works with our entire marketing program and doesn't feel like just a one-off experiment. So lots of education ahead.

Speaker 2: 31:00

I want to be conscious of your time, Toby. If I may, I can I ask you for a 30 seconds? Take on how you see the future playing if everything that we've discussed comes to pass.

Speaker 3: 31:13

The future man. I'm not that creative, I don't think I can actually imagine it. I think the future again looks a lot more collaborative and how we engage with it. So it's not just a one-to-one engagement. So I think the future and the big unlock that I think WebTheir allows us for multiple brands, multiple entities to engage with me and others in a simultaneous fashion. And you're going to see, it's not genitive art, it's a genitive experience. So we get to participate and influence what the experience is, how that looks like, without the constraints of, again, some of the bigger platforms that have come before. Yeah, I think it's dynamic, it's composable and it's kind of open-ended.

Speaker 2: 32:04

Toby Russ, nick Casales. Thank you all for being here today. Thanks for having us. We hope you enjoyed this conversation. In the next one we will be talking about how Web3 communities are redefining brand co-creation. To listen to the entire four-part series, visit stepio. You will find a link down below. And one last thing if you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving it a like or a share, and that's all.